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Elisabeth
10 April 2009 @ 09:56 pm
I'm sorry, John.
{ lyrics of the day }
what will it take for you to understand
this is something the doctors just can't fix?
its always been my style to live a lie
i'm out of breath and we're out of time


I think my heart is breaking more than a little. God, that was so sad, but when John saw Allison tears actually did start to fall. And Derek and Kyle. And Cameron essentially killing herself. It really felt like the end. I want another season so badly, but I don't know where they'd go from here unless they just continued with Sarah's story alone and I don't really want that. I do like Sarah, but she's definitely not my favorite character on the show.

I'm not really sure what to think about when they are. I mean, obviously there's some kind of post-apocalyptic future, but is it the machines that did it. If so and no one's heard of John Connor, does that mean that someone's stepped up to fill his place? To lead the resistance? Or since he jumped through time and never grew up normally, does that mean that he was never able to become the leader they needed and never sent the people and terminators back in time to save him? (The time travel on this show befuddles me, because they seem to indicate there is only one future that they are fighting for, but how can all these changes in time not create a host of alternate realities?)

Cameron, oh Cameron! Why couldn't we get one kiss? I mean, John was already on top of her while she was half naked. Their faces were inches apart. ::makes the cry only a frustrated doomed shipper can make:: Why did she give up her chip? I knew the way she went into that room that she did not intend to "kill" John Henry, but I expected them to team up, not for her to kill herself. It makes me very sad; she was my favorite. Even Sarah better not have any doubts that she loved John (at least in her own cyborg way).

"Will you join us?" I'm also very confused by that. The link to the future and the T-1000 is apparent, and that's what I thought of at first. Cameron obviously got upset and flustered when Ellison said it, and I just thought it was Weaver's way of telling Cameron that she was a T-1000 and that this went way beyond saving a little girl. (Cameron's emotions in this scene really got to me. All episode I was waiting for "another side of Cameron" that the producers promised would come out in this episode. I thought this was possibly the answer at the time.)

John Henry obviously also has a glitch of his own since he kept repeating what Weaver said right after her. Couldn't that be a problem? I mean, I know Cameron had this side of her that was afraid that she was damaged and that she'd kill John Connor some day, but wouldn't her glitches and John Henry's possibly compound? Or does Cameron know she has no problem in her chip and that John Henry's problems are in all the hardware behind him, so together they'd make one fully functioning terminator?

Why did John Henry go to the future? Wouldn't it be best to stay in the current time (or even go backward) to stop Judgment Day? Or is Judgment day just completely inevitable so that he/John/Sarah should just accept this and try to stop fighting it and just be prepared for the battle with the machines after it occurs?

I was quite surprised that Weaver was trying to stop SkyNet. I mean, she didn't seem to be scary-evil because she didn't immediately try to track down John once she knew he was alive and in the same city. (Terminators are so single-minded and if that underwrites all of their coding, despite their other missions, then I imagine finding John Connor would almost flip a switch and they would go immediately destroy him.) She didn't. Still, I thought that this was probably just because she's such an advanced model that she knew she could essentially kill John with her pinky toe.

I just watched the very end again. John's going through so many emotions and he's so happy to see Derek and his dad, but when Allison steps out, he seems overjoyed to have found Cameron, but you see his slow realization that it's not her just written all over his face and he seems sad, and of course confused. He loved her; he went through time to try to get her back. I refuse to believe anything else.

There are so many questions left unanswered, but this does seem like a good place to end the series. I'm glad they got that much, and didn't leave us ending on a cliffhanger.

I liked this icon a lot, but I like it even more now. I imagine it being what Cameron might have said if John had come in time and tried to stop her. He would have been upset, telling her "I need you." After her rationalizations for her actions, I could see her removing her own chip and saying, "Enough, John. The rest is up to you."
 
 
Alexatmomsen8 on April 11th, 2009 04:47 am (UTC)
great post!

but no, we NEED a season 3. So many freaking questions left unanswered.

I NEED TO SEE WHAT JOHN WILL SAY TO ALLISON!
Elisabethkissingdaylight on April 11th, 2009 04:52 am (UTC)
Thanks!

I know! How completely awkward! And would he want to warn her about Cameron possibly killing her in the future or has he not figured that out totally or would he not tell her in order to get Cameron back?

So many possibilities and I need answers! I just can't help being pessimistic about Fox's epic fail. You can keep me in line though. ;)
Number 6newnumber6 on April 12th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)
Yeah, there's a couple different possibilities going on with the future. Either they jumped to sometime before John Connor was famous in the future (possible, but unlikely), or, by jumping, John erased himself from the timeline up to that point (at least, until he gets back). Now, if we trust that he _is_ some kind of future messiah, this should mean that the resistance, although it may exist, is in a much direr position than it was in the original timeline. Of course it could be some kind of exercise in making him realize that he is _not_ the only hope for humanity, even if everybody's been telling him that his whole life. (Or I guess the 'John Connor' of legend could actually _be_ Young Time Travelling John Connor all along, and just nobody said it, but that might be a little too much to swallow).

But either way I think there's a lot of alternate-timeline creation going down. And that's a good thing, even if time travel can get into weird logic loops. I think either alternate timelines or 'everything is predetermined, even the time travel itself' are the only way to get out of the loops.

I think if they continued they probably would have had parallel plots: Sarah in the past, and John in the future, at least for a while. I don't think they could (or should) stretch out a whole season like that, but for a few episodes it could work really well.

As to why Cameron gave up her chip... we can't be entirely sure it was done willingly. I mean, yeah, there was the "I'm sorry John" message, but there could be another reason for it. Maybe she meant to go in to kill him, but he either convinced her of something big, or he overpowered her and took her chip out himself and hooked it into himself, as part of his own 'quest for answers'. I don't think there's a "there's no problems with my chip" explanation for Cameron though, because it got damaged in the first ep of the season and even though they fixed most of it, it still acted up and even when she wasn't acting crazy they were referring to it. John Henry, on the other hand, I don't think is flawed at least in terms of hardware, but is still developing and so could go in any direction.

Why Cameron went forward in time is an important question, but she might have gone forward with the intention of coming back again. After all, their knowledge of the future is already 'out of date' with all the changes they made, maybe she wanted to get information about what they need to do next. The other big question is, did the John Henry body go forward in time _just_ with Cameron's personality, she was using his body because she knew that she couldn't go back to the future alone (in her present state, I'm guessing too much of her exoskeleton was bare for her to count as 'living tissue only)? Or did the John Henry personality go alone and take her chip with him (maybe a little pocket in his skin created to hold it). Or some combination, like a melding of both programs. Arrrgh, so many questions they better answer!

I wasn't especially surprised at Caroline being not-completely a tool of Skynet, since I've been speculating on my own of this sort of thing happening: certain factions of the machines deciding that their future is better ensured through mutual coexistence rather than termination. I was pleased by it, though. I don't think, whatever her goals are, are necessarily the same as John's though. She might not for example wish to stop Judgement Day, maybe she just wants to destroy Skynet, her rival, so she can rule the machines of the future, but because the homicidal machines of the future 'created' her, she can't risk stopping judgement day entirely and never being created.
>He loved her; he went through time >to try to get her back. I refuse to >believe anything else.

I think that's the case too. Because if he didn't love her, yes, it's sad she's gone but you don't risk the future like that.

I do think it was a cliffhanger though, personally. ;)
Elisabethkissingdaylight on April 13th, 2009 07:32 am (UTC)
That's the thing. We don't know when exactly in the timeline Cameron was created. (I always thought it was after Kyle jumped back, but before Derek did, but we actually don't know about that first part really.) I don't know where this comes from, but I've read it in more than one place, so maybe it comes from T3 (which I haven't seen): John becomes famous after he breaks himself and a bunch of humans (including Kyle) out of a machine work camp. So it's possible that that hasn't occurred yet, but I think it's less likely than John just not being a great leader in this future (if an adult him exists there at all). And yeah, the great and powerful leader could be our 17-year-old, but if they go with that I will laugh.

You are Mr Super Time Travel/AU guy, so I actually expected a much more complicated explanation from you on this (but it's probably good you didn't because I probably wouldn't have understood it). On the show they try to indicate that they are fighting for one future, and so I try to reconcile that in my mind, and it mostly worked up until this episode. This was just too much though. Either there's a) no point in fighting or b) about 50 futures now. This is not something I like. I want there to be ONE future (unless it was the type of show to jump realities) because then you know that what you're watching is real. It's not just the one time the human resistance won and the machines won the other 49 times. I don't know how to explain it properly, but it irks me.

The parallel thing is what makes me wonder if TSCC producers knew that the show was going to be canceled, because apparently Fox is pissed about the large budget since they're not getting a large audience, so planning on doing half of the next season in the future that requires more extensive sets, wardrobe, and SFX does not seem wise. If there's a season 3, they better do it that way though and not try to cut out John, because technically the show is supposed to be about Sarah Connor. :|

It's possible that John Henry stole the chip, but I think he would have had to convince her because even though Cameron was in a bad state at the moment, she would have still put up a fight and there were no signs of a terminator on terminator struggle in that room. I don't think there's a big problem with John Henry, but what did you make of him repeating phrases throughout this episode for no apparent reason (other than to annoy me)? I took it to mean that replacing that fan had changed him in not a good way; obviously not something terribly serious, but still not good.

I'm guessing that John Henry would pretty much have Cameron's personality. We were led to believe that all the drives behind John Henry made up his personality, and that Cromartie's exoskelton was simply a cyborg vessel to put those thoughts into. Since he's no long attached it would seem the only programming he has to go on is Cameron's - which is probably a good thing since John Henry didn't have it out for John Connor but he didn't feel any need to protect him either.

Do you think Catherine Weaver could be the same T-1000 that we saw on the sub and that's where the "Will you join us?" connection comes from? I'm getting quite curious about that.

Yay! The shippy love cannot be denied!

Well, there are certainly a lot of questions I would still like answered, but I view it more as an open-ended finale. The writers know that there's another Terminator movie coming out (and maybe more after that) and probably want the TV show to be as much a part of the Terminator canon as possible without compromising the show, but if they know the show is ending...
Number 6newnumber6 on April 13th, 2009 07:19 pm (UTC)
Yeah, you're right about John liberating a work camp being one of the big things he was famous for (though I don't know if it was the first or only thing). That coem sfrom the series and, I believe, the first movie. T3 suggested he was involved in coordinating the military from the beginning, but they're ignorign a lot of T3.

And I can totally understand why the '50 different futures' idea irks you. I don't personally have the "if there are millions of alternate universes, why does it matter what happens?" problem, probably because I've read/watched so many things with that as a concept (including a few that tackle the problem of that head on). I sorta look at it like people. There are over 6 billion people on the world. When you think about it, any individual one is spectacularly unimportant. Even if that one is, for good or ill, going to affect the whole world, well, there are billions of galaxies out there and probably billions upon billions of more intelligent beings, all having their own private lives, private triumphs and private disasters. That great or horrible person to us means nothign to them, nor are their greats important to us. When you look at it like that, there's almost no reason to care about any of them. But we do care, in particular about the people we meet, the ones we become invested in. That's the way it works here, for me. This particular timeline may only be one of millions, but it's the only one we're watching, and so it's important. And its the one that the characters live in, so it's certainly important to _them_. (Actually my biggest problem there is the _machines_ motivations for time travel, since it seems much less liekly to me that they'd care if an alternate timeline where they win exists, if it's not the one they're living in).

There are still potentially other ways that the 'future' is still 'the future' as opposed to 'a future', though, if you say for some reason that time travel doesn't 'loop'. Like, if you send someone back in time to kill person A. say he succeeds. Then Person A would be dead, and the killer has no reason to be sent back in time. so he doesn't go. So Person A survives because nobody comes back. But that's only if there's loop. (You could also have a situation where _only_ such impossible loops create full alternate timelines, and so there are a limited number of universes out there, all created by paradox-creating time travel). Similarly, if Person A comes back in time and alters history a significant amount, and in the new future Person A still goes back in time, to the same time and place but for a slightly different reason (maybe he didn't even know he'd come back before), does he replace himself? Do two show up at the same time? Does only the first version still exist in the past, and the second version just disappears forever when he goes back in time?

See, that's the problem with those explanations, from my personal tastes at least. They're much more convoluted very hard to apply consistently for storytelling purposes, you usually wind up contradicting your rules without even meaning to. That's why I prefer the two classic approaches - lots of different timelines, or 'everything is predestined, time travel included, even if it didn't look that way'. Anyway, I think I just sort of rambled on on this long enough and confused myself, so I apologize. ;)
Elisabethkissingdaylight on April 16th, 2009 02:44 am (UTC)
Right, yeah, I saw part of T1 the other day and Kyle explains the work camp thing to Sarah. I'm glad I'm not just going crazy.

Well now I'm pretty sure that in canon there are different universes because I was listening carefully to what Kyle said and he said he came "from the future; well, one possible future." I understand your explanation, but it will continue to bother me a bit. Why would the machines have any different motivations than the humans? Don't they want to survive and not be killed off even more?

That's something explored in other shows, I know. That if you have the same person from two different timelines, they can't meet or else the world will fall apart and all. When they did it on Roswell, when the future had been changed significantly enough, the person from the future just disappeared because they no longer existed. I like this realm of thought.

That's okay! I mean, I think those are the only two options here but both frustrate me so I'm trying to reconcile which one I can live with. XP
Number 6newnumber6 on April 16th, 2009 11:04 am (UTC)
The machines have the same goals but generally they'd probably have a different perspective, coldder, more logical nad probably more informed. That is, a human might go back in time to change history for the better (for them), either not realizing that it won't actually change anything for the specific people they care about (since that timeline will still exist, exactly the same), or even if they do, they'll comfort themselves with "okay, but at least I'll be helping one universe full of people have a better situation".

Machines, I'd imagine, at least coldly efficient ones that are usually portrayed in the Terminator universe, would operate differently. Skynet, who doesn't actually go back in time, _should_ realize "if I send a Terminator back in time to change history (by killing John Connor), the universe here remains exactly the same. Net benefit to me = 0." and perhaps, "Sending a Terminator back in time would allow another universe full of Terminators to have it better. But I am unlikely to have any contact with this other universes. Chances of benefit to me = 0." So either the Terminators know something we don't about time, they don't grasp it in the same way we can, or they're more similar to us than we'd admit. Of course, in the first movie, Time travel only came into play when Skynet had already lost, so you can excuse it as a last ditch 'the chances of this doing Skynet any good is almost zero, but the chances of Skynet surviving without it are also almost zero, so it makes sense from a cost/benefit strategy', but in the series it's sort of been portrayed that the struggle is still very much ongoing when Time Travel goes into it (presumably due to the changes in history from the first two movies).

Then again, if you have Time Travel, maybe travelling to alternate present TimeLines isn't far behind, and Skynet's plan all along was to create alternate 'Skynet Victorius' timelines in which to ally with once they finish _that_ technological leap.

*shrugs*. I've probably thought about this way too much. ;)
Number 6newnumber6 on April 13th, 2009 07:19 pm (UTC)
Re: John Henry's repetitions. I dunno, I personally took it to sort of be a sign that he's growing out of his baby phase where he was just asking questions and absorbing information, he was trying to specifically make decisions and comments and be 'active', even if it only meant, in some cases, parrotting back what somebody else said. And that he's closer to Catherine in personality than Ellison.

I definitely think Weaver is the T-1000 from the Sub, and she and Cameron likely have some extensive history we haven't seen yet. Also, long ago there were some hints that Cameron was a special model. The Terminators who scan her in the early eps can't place her exact model, and in the pilot she herself hints that she's special. Maybe she was originally a Weaver-made Terminator, and defected to join John despite it being against her programming, and then wanted to build an alliance.

I also wonder idly, if the show continues/d, would we see an adult Savannah in the future? After all, Weaver said Savannah's survival depends on John Henry's. It's conceivably even possible that Savannah is, in some way, responsible for the Weaver-1000 not being all killy. Maybe future Savannah becomes in some ways mother to the T-1000 who then goes back in time to become her mother. That's just wild speculation though.
Elisabethkissingdaylight on April 16th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
Isn't it more baby-ish to just repeat things and no ask questions? I agree about the Weaver part. I like when she called John Henry her and Ellison's "boy" - like they had a child or something. Weirdness.

I think extensive history would be so cool. Do you think Weaver would really make inferior models. Yes, we know that Cameron is "special" in some way, but why make the old chip version if you can make virtually indestructible T-1000s? And why would sub-Weaver change her mind?

Eh, Weaver said that Savannah *and* Ellison's survival depended on John Henry, so I think she really just meant the human race. An adult taking part in creating their own childhood is weird to me. I obviously accept it with John, but it's still strange. (I tried to explain the basic concept to my mother, and she couldn't even wrap her head around that much.)

I am glad after reading BAG's interview that they have season 3 planned out and this wasn't just the writer's giving up. We might actually get some answers!
Number 6newnumber6 on April 16th, 2009 11:14 am (UTC)
Repeating does seem more babyish than asking questions, for a human, but to me at least, for John Henry, it strikes me as a step from a passive, gathering information stage to an active, making decisions and declarations and evaluating the information. It's still hesitant about it which is why it seems juvenile. But that's just me.

I think you have to assume that T-1000s don't make the other Terminator models completely obsolete. They must be hard enough to create that Skynet only makes a small number compared to the regular bots, since they're so much more effective at killing. Also, in the Last Missiong of the Jimmy Carter ep, we saw a bunch of old style terminators peacefully hand Weaver (if that was her) off to the humans in a box. I always figured those were Weaver Terminators. So I don't see why Weaver (or perhaps a mini-Skynet behind her) might not create special purpose models possibly like Cameron, even while having T-1000s. As to Weaver changing her mind... well, we don't know that she did. Just because she's fighting Skynet doesn't mean that she's on the side of John Connor. Her "Will you join us?" was directed at Cameron, not at John. Maybe she just wants Cameron to join her in _her_ plan, which might have some common goals with John, but be incompatible in methods (Weaver, for example, might still want Judgement Day). But even if she did change her mind, that's certainly possible, at least with advance models, and the whys of it might be a revelation down the line.
angylone on April 13th, 2009 02:35 am (UTC)
I'm not really sure what to think about when they are. I mean, obviously there's some kind of post-apocalyptic future, but is it the machines that did it. If so and no one's heard of John Connor, does that mean that someone's stepped up to fill his place? To lead the resistance?
I think it was Kyle who's leading the resistance which is why John would be famous for wearing his coat. but that's obviously just a theory.

(The time travel on this show befuddles me, because they seem to indicate there is only one future that they are fighting for, but how can all these changes in time not create a host of alternate realities?)
I'm equally befuddled which is why I stopped trying too hard to pay attention.
Though, I don't think they're creating host realities. I think it's a singular future, that just keeps changing when people go back to the past; an ever evolving future.

Or does Cameron know she has no problem in her chip and that John Henry's problems are in all the hardware behind him, so together they'd make one fully functioning terminator?
Thats interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

I just watched the very end again. John's going through so many emotions and he's so happy to see Derek and his dad, but when Allison steps out, he seems overjoyed to have found Cameron, but you see his slow realization that it's not her just written all over his face and he seems sad, and of course confused. He loved her; he went through time to try to get her back.
Yeah, that was such a good moment and I totally agree with you. He wasn't going after her to save the future.
Elisabeth: tscc. not the one i'm looking for.kissingdaylight on April 13th, 2009 07:36 am (UTC)
1. Yes, I've read that and though we don't know anything about this future, really, it does seem the most likely from the little we have to go on.

2. I think I just need to try to not think about it. I mean, until this episode I thought it was confusing but I could reconcile it all leading to one future, but this just rocked my boat a little too far. Must put it out of mind.

4. John/Cameron shippers FTW! (a very sad, sad win)
Hannahrainsymphony on April 15th, 2009 02:28 am (UTC)
i just watched the finale and omg is all i can really say. especially when everyone showed up... everyone's alive!

but the time-line thing is quite convoluted in my mind. there's got to be alternate futures cause.. if not, then if the machines, then the machines would never be sent back to stop the machines. and there was that whole thing with jesse wanting to kill the guy that tortured derek but derek didn't remember. anyway. i try not to think too hard about that =P

i definitely need to go see the terminator movies. especially with the new one coming out (!!)
Elisabeth: actors. summer: glee!kissingdaylight on April 16th, 2009 02:54 am (UTC)
Yes, definitely watch the movies! They're all weird and 80s stuff but I thought it was really cool to see all the stuff that's in the show tie into the movies. (I also saw the TV show first.) I haven't seen T3 because everyone says it's so bad, but I may watch it anyway before T4 so I make sure I'm on board with everything.

I'm so excited about the new movie! :D